leagueofancients.org.au Forum Index leagueofancients.org.au
League of Ancients
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Sliding/shirting sideways in an assault
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    leagueofancients.org.au Forum Index -> Napoleonics
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Steve Green



Joined: 22 May 2012
Posts: 198
Location: Woodend

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:49 pm    Post subject: Sliding/shirting sideways in an assault Reply with quote

Just to confirm, the list of reasons that permit a unit to shift during an assault move does NOT include to avoid an enemy unit. This would mean that you only have the wheel at the start.

I think this may create issues when one side has a line of units in side contact with each other and the opposition launches an assault at a target with which it is not directly lined up. My grasp of geometry is rudimentary at best, but I think the rules for wheeling during an assault will make it impossible to avoid hitting the unit next to the target first. Allowing a minimum slide to avoid enemy who are not the target of the charge would solve this.
_________________
The Dead Cost Nothing!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Carriage



Joined: 12 Dec 2012
Posts: 162

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Assuming that it's not included, I think you still manage to hit by wheeling more, which you'd be allowed to do as it means you're able to hit your target.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Carriage



Joined: 12 Dec 2012
Posts: 162

PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, no. You can wheel less but not more.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Steve Green



Joined: 22 May 2012
Posts: 198
Location: Woodend

PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another possible solution is to allow the wheel to continue until a corner of the assaulters and the target line up.
_________________
The Dead Cost Nothing!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Richard Gordon



Joined: 15 Oct 2011
Posts: 564

PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So to confirm, you cannot slide to avoid enemy in an assault.

However, to get round your issue Steve, the 2nd bullet under wheeling talks about wheeling until some part of the enemy unit is to your centre, "or as far as possible if this would otherwise cause them not to reach their target."

The bit I've quoted above would allow you to wheel further so that you could hit the target.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Steve Green



Joined: 22 May 2012
Posts: 198
Location: Woodend

PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The second bullet point deals with the minimum that an assaulting unit must wheel - this is not the issue I was talking about.
It is the third bullet point, that deals with the maximum that a unit can wheel that creates the problem -

They may not wheel........past the point at which the centre of the target's nearest edge is directly ahead of the centre of their own unit.

For example, say the target is the centre of three units who moved as a brigade group, and are therefor in side-edge contact. If the assaulter starts offset from their target, the centre-to-centre limitation on the wheel makes it impossible for the assaulter to avoid the unit next to the target.
At a small offset it's not that apparent, but the greater the angle, the more pronounced the problem.
_________________
The Dead Cost Nothing!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Richard Gordon



Joined: 15 Oct 2011
Posts: 564

PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm... you may have a point. I'll chat to Brett. Part of me wonders if this is a bad thing, that you can't target something so specifically if it means needing to avoid something that would be much more natural/easier to assault. But as wargamers we like to be all powerful in our choices...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Richard



Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 1052
Location: Elsternwick

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree the second bullet resolve the problem

You may wheel further than the centre if otherwise you wouldn't contact .I think they are talking about maximum and minimum

So in Steve's example ,I can charge the middle unit unit because I wheel "as far as possible" so as to reach my target.

Plus , of course , the unit you're avoiding is in range to intercept
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Steve Green



Joined: 22 May 2012
Posts: 198
Location: Woodend

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The second bullet point deals with how far a unit must wheel.
The third bullet point deals with how far a unit may wheel.

The""or as far as possible" is only in the second bullet point and so, to my reading, refers only to the minimum wheel required, and has no bearing on the limit placed on the wheel in the third bullet point.
_________________
The Dead Cost Nothing!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Richard



Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 1052
Location: Elsternwick

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see what you mean .

Either way ,the meaning isn't clear so the rules need new words to reflect whatever the intent

Is it reasonable to be able to pick your target ?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Geoff



Joined: 28 Jan 2015
Posts: 26
Location: Sydney

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard wrote:
I see what you mean .

Either way ,the meaning isn't clear so the rules need new words to reflect whatever the intent

Is it reasonable to be able to pick your target ?


One of the things I loved most about these rules is that they stopped units doing weird things that would never have happened.
The original rules, I thought, made it clear that you could not wheel past the centre line of any unit to your front. This stops those gamey situations where you wheel across the front of a unit to hit another unit.
Please make the rules 100% clear to stop this sort of rubbishing. It especially doesn't belong in a brigade level game.

Geoff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Steve Green



Joined: 22 May 2012
Posts: 198
Location: Woodend

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't really have a problem with being able to pick your target, and wasn't suggesting that this be changed. It fits with the dictum to concentrate fire at a certain point and then hit that point hard. Any change would require a pretty substantial rethink of tactics, and would open the door for problems where a "discussion" may arise over whether the assaulting unit is actually lined up perfectly with its target.
I think a small change to the third bullet would solve this, maybe:

They may not wheel to place less of the target to their front. They may not wheel past the point at which the centre of the target's nearest edge is directly ahead of the centre of their own unit, unless this is by the minimum necessary to avoid an enemy unit that is not the target of the assault. (My addition in italics.)

This avoids the need to allow a shift.
Alternatively, adding "enemy units" to the list of reasons to shift during an assault would solve the problem also, possibly with fewer unintended consequences.
_________________
The Dead Cost Nothing!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Geoff



Joined: 28 Jan 2015
Posts: 26
Location: Sydney

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think the simplest wording would be that an assault cannot shift. Your own unit centre cannot wheel past the centre of the unit you are assaulting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Richard



Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 1052
Location: Elsternwick

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't like shifting , but not wheeling past centre on occasion will make 2 v 1 charges harder to fit
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Steve Green



Joined: 22 May 2012
Posts: 198
Location: Woodend

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This discussion seems to have moved to one about whether or not an assaulter should be able to pick a target from a row of enemy units.
If the decision is yes, then a change is required to the rules either for wheeling or shifting during an assault.
If the decision is no, then no change is required.
I have no firm opinion either way, and can see arguments for both sides. But I think a decision needs to be made soon and published asap to give everyone a chance to digest the ramifications, and work out how it will affect their tactics before the tournament next month.
_________________
The Dead Cost Nothing!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    leagueofancients.org.au Forum Index -> Napoleonics All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group